Who Do You Complain To?

Discussion in 'General' started by chuck_h, Aug 23, 2012.

  1. Trantice

    Trantice User

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    This is probably the end all be all argument for this thread. However, this doesn't mean you can't do what you can to protest a rejection. It is all about empowerment.

    For me personally, I am a hybrid hardcore and casual turker. I have a well paying full time job that allows me to have downtime during the day, and I can spend time searching for HITs. I also have a wife and a condo that I just bought. An extra 200-400 bucks a month will go a LONG way for me to supplement my income.

    That being said, if I don't make $20 bucks in a day its not a big deal for me. I do what I can. This allows me to pass on many good looking HITs that I THINK are scams but can't really tell for sure. More often than not someone has posted here about it and I wait for a reply.

    In the end, you are the only one that can protect yourself. Amazon has made this very clear. However, emailing authorities can help you feel better but will never get you anywhere.
     
  2. Athena

    Athena User

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    If you want to be alone in defending yourself against the powerful and/or corrupt, more power to you.

    History has a proven track record supporting the effectiveness of "strength in numbers".

    The idea that collective action against corruption/the powerful/the criminal is "bad", is a scam.
    "Every serf for himself" is a meme that serves the nobility and the plunderers and pillagers.
    Good luck with that.
     
  3. chrispennfl

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    *If you check the Turkopticon rating for CrowdServer, my rating of them is the first one, and you'll note that I gave them a 5 for promptness, because at least they were quick about screwing me over.

    That should have been your first clue to proceed with caution
     
  4. Whimsy

    Whimsy User

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    ...you knew this could happen and effectively took one for the team. I get that. But...

    nvm this arguing has gotten way outta hand.
    I'm sorry you got the rejections. I am also of the understanding that you knew this could happen. You played with fire and got burned this time.
     
  5. Whimsy

    Whimsy User

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    how is wanting to promote a smarter, savvier society turned into "every serf for himself?"

    you're seeing my argument in a way it was not intended, so i will step out of it. you will see whatever i say in the light you initially took it.
     
  6. melissa71642

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    You are not an employee; you are an independant contractor and therefore, the DOL isn't going to help you any. The laws are not really in favor of independant contractors either. I"ve seen this happen many, many times outside of Mturk and nothing can be done except for taking them to small claims court and in this case, I can't see how that would be worth it since it will cost you FAR more in legal fees than it's really worth.
     
  7. Athena

    Athena User

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    My contacting the FBI about one particularly egregious Mturk scammer very well might have helped. It was a legally simple case, though, where it seemed like the scammer was a serial identity thief.
     
  8. Turkalicious

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    Good gods this thread went to shit real fast and has started bringing out a bit of ick it seems.

    Back to cleaning house for me.. almost done and my frozen strawberry daiquiri awaits.
     
  9. melissa71642

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    Pretty sure that there are quite a few that use the fake submit button and they are indeed still around and have been around for years, since I just seen one this morning. They go away until they get another credit card and change their name because Amazon does ban requester accounts.
     
  10. chrispennfl

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    You're going to a desperate space to substantiate a point in which you're failing to prove, that's apples and oranges. The fact of the matter is he could have prevented it and basically said that in his earlier post, shame on him not shame on whoever I can blame it on.
     
  11. angelface83

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    Trantice- It helps a lot of people get a lot of places to contact authorities over fraud- When you give them their information you can bet they do look into a lot of cases and end up catching people who have scammed a lot of others- People who do this on Mturk....you can bet it isn't their first time doing it. They usually have a history of fraud- And there is no evidence saying it does nothing. He wasn't doing it to "feel" better- He was doing it to report fraud. It is fraud.

    And the more these requesters have eyes on them and people looking into them- The more of a chance they will be caught and be in jail- No longer being able to post on Mturk. ;) More power to anyone who does it.
    It isn't pointless. It does get eyes on them and people looking into their practices more often than not.
    And that certainly isn't a bad thing- More bad people getting caught and unable to do harm to others in whatever shape or form for however long- Is a good thing.

    I do agree with what melissa is saying- normally for that you do have to take an employer to small claims court- But since amazon's business model is a bit different- It could envoke them to change in the future and to implement policies so requesters cannot just put up whatever they want and reject anything they want etc without paying. There are people with little money or none who have sued big companies or included many in lawsuits- If Amazon ticks off the wrong person- A high end lawyer may be willing to take this on and include Amazon in it- It has happened before! And it changes the way companies do things after that. Unless they are not bright :/
     
  12. Athena

    Athena User

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    Shame on him for having his work stolen?

    Almost everything is preventable. Any time you drive or ride in a car you're putting yourself at risk of death. That doesn't mean that the victims of drunk drivers are the real scoundrels.
     
  13. chrispennfl

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    And you keep getting more desperate trying to prove this and fight it tooth and nail, get up a petition for which workers should be treated better on mturk I'll be the first to sign it.
     
  14. chrispennfl

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    When making comparisons to which you are arguing about please make sure it's logical and applies to the topic at hand, not just a slim comparison and something that is so totally off base in which we are discussing.
     
  15. chuck_h

    chuck_h User

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    Wow! Did I Start Something or What?

    What I think it is is that there's a fundamental disagreement amongst what the role of government actually is. There are those who think that government should play no role whatsoever, and that the Turker community alone should act to protect itself, and those who think that the role of government is to arbitrate disputes between its citizens and, if necessary, protect the rights of those citizens. I'm in the latter camp.

    Some of the more vile metaphors presented, such as the argument that "if you dress like a whore you're going to get raped", I chalk up to either the poster's inability to come up with a less disgusting and reprehensible example, or a limited ability in rhetoric and argument.

    It was not my intention to figuratively pour out a puddle of gasoline and set a match to it, and I am truly surprised that there's been such an outpouring of emotionally-charged posts in response to my initial post.
     
  16. melissa71642

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    Petitions have been done and they're not worth the paper they're written on. I've been on Mturk since late 2007 and it has not come out of beta yet nor have they given the workers the benefit of the doubt on rejections; they side with the requesters because even if a requester comes through and rejects everything, Amazon still gets their percentage because they take it before the hit has even been listed, and since requesters are what's bringing in the money for Amazon, I'm pretty convinced that they will ALWAYS side with who is making them money. (Just my two cents, take it for what it's worth :) )
     
  17. Maggiemw

    Maggiemw User

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    Jumping into this mess here, from a perspective that isn't in the US (just warning you).

    Let me make it really clear right off the bat that I'm on Chuck and Athena's side.

    The Internet tends to enable some people to act as if national, international or local laws no longer apply. That they can be and do whatever they feel like, including scamming others and acting under false pretenses. They figure the Net is anonymous, the Wild West, and that they won't be caught. Or simply that nothing applies.

    Nope. Wrong. Both the FBI and the Internet Fraud Office are there for you to complain to, and they DO act, both in the US and outside, in conjunction with Interpol. I have direct experience with this - I lodged a complaint to the FBI about international Internet fraud (based in the US) and the guys got caught. It worked because enough concerned world citizens sent information and formal complaints to the Internet Fraud Office. So, yeah, the Internet is NOT a place where anything goes and there ARE organizations working to police it.

    OK, what about scammer requesters on MTurk? I would seriously a couple of paths: 1) Put pressure on Amazon to police its requestors, by sending a well-documented file to their legal department, their PR department, their ethics committee, and as many of the higher echelons as can be found. Suggest and chart of ethics, with sanctions and incentives, that any requester must agree to and adhere to.

    Reporting a HIT for breaking the TOS should result in an immediate investigation, a real one, and if warranted, suspension of that requester's account. Amazon needs to take this kind of thing more seriously. It's because they don't seem to that the Wild West atmosphere persists.

    Sufficient funds to pay for the HITs should be placed in escrow and those monies should be used to pay workers.

    Rejected work must have an appeal process. Cumbersome, yes, but also ethical. It is because there is no one to appeal to, or so it would seem, that requesters once again get to do whatever they bloody well please.

    Obviously if you, the worker, agree to the pay for the hit, then there's not much one can do on a collective level to improve payment rates, but publicizing the pittances and putting the errant requester on the spot to justify paying a pittance might make the guy think a bit about his reputation and his actions.

    If the hits are fraudulent or illegal in any way, according to the laws of the area of jurisdiction, then yes, the requestor should be pursued for fraud or attempted fraud, and yes, that's where Amazon needs to realize that its position as a middle-man facilitator could get it into serious trouble. ISPs get into BIG trouble for hosting fraudulent websites and by analogy, Amazon could be letting itself in for the same kind of legal trouble.

    Self-help and self-defence? Of course, that goes without saying. But there has to be a safety net behind the individual. That is what a society based on law is for. We as individuals are important to our own defence, but the reason we live in an orderly society is for protection by the group.
     
  18. angelface83

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    And specifically you can send those kind of HITS and requester names right to the FBI and Interpol without ever doing a HIT and tell them you suspect fraud if you want- They do follow leads a lot. And if they are stealing identities...which they would have to be to open so many accounts- Then that is just another scumbag the authorities can bring charges upon. Commit fraud and they follow- The government loves filling up jails with people who commit fraud. Especially if they are poor.

    Yeah well people have scams all over the internet- And people still send spam emails and emails with "You won the lottery" Even people who have been caught before :/ The internet will always have tons of them- It doesn't mean that it isn't worth reporting. It is. If no one cared and never reported a thing- a lot more people, children, animals etc etc would suffer.

    If someone wants to report it...no one should be ganging up on them. Why is everyone against someone reporting? Stop bullying. People can report whatever they want. No one asked what anything thought ABOUT reporting it.

    This thread IS ugly and should be shut down. Bullying shouldn't be tolerated. Just because you wouldn't report it or think it is usless- Doesn't mean your opinion (for all who think it) rules all- And again..this thread didn't ask for your opinion on whether to report or not. So stop bullying.

    I hope calling people names makes you feel better Whimsy. Someone being naive doesn't make them not an adult- And no one is naive here- Just because you have an opinion I don't agree with- I could call you names too- but I don't. Its bullying. And that certainly doesn't make you an adult to bully. That is what kids do- You are supposed to leave that behind as an adult. Picking on others and making fun of them is what kids do. Adults are supposed to have grown out of that and be mature and respectful to each other-

     
  19. Athena

    Athena User

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    I agree with what Melissa was saying, too. But that's why:

    1) I was thinking contacting the NLG might be fruitful. This kind of thing is sort of their raison d'ĂȘtre.

    2) I think it's overall better for labor to be proactive here, in this new, Wild Wild West of lawless internet work which will almost certainly grow in relationship to the brick and mortar temp/data entry/etc services in the future.
     
  20. angelface83

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    I am too chuck- But there are some very nasty people I have seen on the forum since being a member here and they are often rude, bully others and have no respect for others opinions.

    I agree..that rape post was horrible.

    It has gotten emotionally charged on my end because I dislike seeing people bully and be so rude and nasty to someone. You posted a very polite and respectful post- As did Athena. And I don't like how nasty people were in return. It was bullying and uncalled for and should be against etiquette in this forum. There should be a set of rules and being respectful to each other should be one of them.

    Thank you Maggie for your post.
     
    #60 angelface83, Aug 23, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 23, 2012

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